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Communities in control: real people, real power

Last post 08/08/2008, 2:05 PM by Anne Wilkins. 25 replies.

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  • Communities in control: real people, real power

    Welcome to our discussion forum where you can share your views our White Paper, Communities in control: real people, real power, which was launched on 9 July 2008. The aim of this White Paper is to pass power into the hands of communities and local people. We want to generate vibrant local democracy in every part of country and give real control over local decisions and services to a wider pool of citizens.

    Your views are important to us. All your comments will be used to help to shape our next steps. Please use this forum to answer the following questions:

    • How do we achieve the aspirations in Communities in control?
    • How do we put Communities in control?

    Anne Wilkins (Moderator)
    Empowerment Team

  • 412 in reply to 410
    09/07/2008, 1:42 PM :: Posted by ajz1000 (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    Just read the summary of the White Paper, which I think is a good start, though it could have been more radical. The thing that struck me right the way through is that so much of the implementation rests on the ambition and drive of local authorities - some of whom might feel threatened by these new ways of working, particularly around neighbourhoods and sub-council levels.

     I've blogged some wider thoughts too, but what do people think we can do to ginger up reluctant local authorities?

  • 420 in reply to 410
    10/07/2008, 9:52 AM :: Posted by Mick P (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    Great news about school governors etc but I believe this is just the fringe of the operation, for example in my own case I chair a SACRE (Standing Adsvisory Council on Religious Education, a statutory body under the Education Act) which can have difficulty recruiting representation. With roles in various voluntary organisations I find myself frequently called upon for day-time meetings by local authorities and other bodies wanting to fulfill their consultation quotas but forgetting that I too have a full-time job. I quote my own example but I am aware of many in a similar situation, especially self-employed, who lose income due to voluntary work.

    I suspect there is a need for meetings to be more flexible, people to be compensated or consultation to be rationalised.

  • 426 in reply to 420
    10/07/2008, 5:03 PM :: Posted by Philip Hosking (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    Yet again, another example of how to translate a desire for local devolution into a talking shop jam full of sound bites and jargon that is ultimately meaningless when it ignores real public demand in Cornwall for a Cornish Assembly. I fear that engagement in this type of thing is a waste of our energies and I think we have every right to be sceptical of these proposals. This is game playing - not real democracy.

    Cornwall Council's Feb 2003 MORI Poll showed 55% in favor of a democratically-elected, fully-devolved regional assembly for Cornwall, (this was an increase from 46% in favor in a 2002 poll). In 2000 The Cornish Constitutional Convention launched a campaign that resulted in a petition signed by 50,000 people calling for a fully devolved Cornish assembly.  The campaign generated support from across the political spectrum in Cornwall and to date has been the largest expression of popular support for devolution in the whole of the United Kingdom.

     

    http://thecornishdemocrat.blogspot.com/

  • 434 in reply to 420
    10/07/2008, 9:18 PM :: Posted by edbrown (Posts 2)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    This issue of participation and full-time work is a real issue for those in Small, Micro and self-employment. My own company has 1.5 employees and as a school governor I spent several hours every week on governor business with Governing Body meeting most weeks. As someone who is effectively self-employed every hour I spennd on Governor business is earnings lost. It is great to say that time off will be allowed but there needs to be a mechenism for compensating those who do this type of role for their loss of earnings.

     It is fine ofr those in large companies who are often offered one or two weeks a year ofr community support activities but for small and micro businesses and the self-employed there is nothing. This is also the largest area from which to recruit people and these are often the people with good local knowledge.

  • 435 in reply to 410
    10/07/2008, 9:27 PM :: Posted by Bob Line (Posts 2)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    These are all fine aspirations, but from long practical experience of how local government operates in reality it will not really get anywhere until the top down pressures of opinion based inspections and BVPI targets  are removed completely.  Yes they have been altered and thinned out a bit, but doing less of the wrong thing does not make it less wrong.   Scrap the Audit Commission and start again with a different approach based on helping and advising local authorities with their systems, not soaking up their time and resources.
  • 436 in reply to 410
    10/07/2008, 9:28 PM :: Posted by edbrown (Posts 2)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    I like the idea of more local control but this is the opposite of what is currently happening.

     For example I live in Northumberland where the Government asked us what sort of Unitary Authority we wanted in a referendum - we chose to have local Unitary Authorities to directly serve the two distinct communities - one for the sparse rural area and one for the highly populated urban area. The views of the people were ignored by the Government who said that the single Unitary Authority they imposed against the democratic wishes of the people had the support of a broad range of stakeholders. However, EVERY public poll of taxpayers and the democratic referendum of electors was against the Single Unitary Authority. Now the fundamental Building blocks of the new Unitary Authority have been rejected by Parish and Town councils and the general public at local level because the Single Unitary is not what the people want.

    So the real question here is whether these proposals are really about putting local people and the democratic view of local people first - if they are then the Single Unitary Council in Northumberland will be scrapped with immediate effect as the local people have voted overwhelmingly against the Single Unitary Authority numerous times in official and unofficial polls - this is real people making a real decision - I throw down the gauntlet to the Government - live by your words - give those people real power - scrap the Single Unitary Authority in Northumberland NOW.

     

     

  • 447 in reply to 410
    14/07/2008, 7:46 AM :: Posted by ianj (Posts 6)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    There are some fine words within the paper but still no fundamental shift of power from the centre.  It seems to be more about crumbs from the London table of control than real local power sharing. 

    Whitehall still does not understand localism.  An example is the proposed Empowerment fund.  To think that national organisations are best place to support community empowerment is astonishing. True empowerment comes from local groups supporting each other not large national institutions ‘pretending’ to understand local issues. National bodies can also have a tendency to undermine local initiatives and partnerships.  This one example shows a lack of understanding of how local actions emerge.  It still exhibits the centralist approach to community engagement that local activity has to be supported the same way through a national body.

  • 462 in reply to 447
    15/07/2008, 1:05 PM :: Posted by Lockwood (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

     

    As often is the case the spirit is willing but the devil is in the detail.

    Para 11: Councils remain at the heart of local democracy: unfortunately that's not true. Councils have grown too powerful. Senior officials move from place to place, following a career pathway that scant regard for the people they serve. They have become too bureaucratic, and too expensive to manage. Our county CEO is paid £218,000 a year - to do what? Follow the instructions of unpaid councillors? She makes few real business decisions, and cannot be compared with the demands found in commerce and industry.

    12. Duty to promote democracy is a fine principle, but the details destroy the intention. We've just held a public consultation, spread over two Saturdays, 9-5pm, to enable folk to contribute to a Neighbourhood (Parish) Plan. Nine people attended - despite having distributed over 1,000 flyers, and promoted in newspapers, shop windows etc. What's gone wrong? People don't feel they have any power.

    How will we ever persuade 5% of the electorate to sign a petition? In any case what then happens? A council official is forced to appear before a Scrutiny Committee: so what? Can they sack that official for incompetence? Council officials should publicly justify all the decisions they make that are questioned. Conkers falling off trees are considered dangerous - who says so? Put that council official before the cameras and make them justify that decision.

    14. A course to show us how to take part? To what end? That sort of training should be participatory - helping citizens do something, not telling them how it can be done. Such courses waste public money.

    15. I love the idea of a fund to help - but we run a local community radio station where getting grants seems impossible. It takes days to prepare the application, you must fit the categories the funder wants, amd we've had so many refusals we've stopped applying. For a small group filling in 20-page forms, sending in three-year accounts, business plans, mem and arts, ensuring CRB checks, health & safety requirements are met and all the other paraphenalia means we don't have the time to provide the service we want to provide. We sent off five applications to our council recently - each was refused, with no explanation - even though we've now asked three times.

    16. Yes please we'd like to make our views known in your survey - and we serve the whole community, not one sectional interest.

    17. Climate change is complex - the schemes suggested are just palliative.

    19-23 We'd suggest supporting local community radio: there are now over 300 local stations. Most are struggling with few funds. Given proper support (part of the licence fee) we can become a cheap, sustainable, enjoyable way of building communities and spreading information. Right now we are broadcasting/podcasting 15-minute programmes for HM Revenue and Customs. This week's subject is tax credits, explained in detail. Mixing business with pleasure we build audiences.

    The belief that we are all desperate to know that the hospital 150 miles away provides a better service than our own is fatuous. Instead concentrate upon improving the basic standards locally - many of our NHS services are now being located miles away - at what overall cost to the community as patients and visiors now travel miles?

    24-26 Petitions are a reactive process. By the time they are necessary the damage is done. Opinions are entrenched and the decision makers defensive. The process is doomed. We need a pro-active process where local communities build plans, and budgets can then be agreed and allocated within a dialogue that is open.

    Locally we have a dispute over housing. LA says government insists they must build houses. There's no local evidence that we need houses. A protest group is set up. They attend a council meeting, in a hall holding 100 people, leaving 400 standing outside. Nobody is allowed to speak. The decision has been taken. Further consultations are finally agreed - to take place 15 miles away in the council offices. The public must 'select' a speaker, allowed to talk for three minutes but only about specific subjects. That's consultation? That's why nobody has any faith in the local democratic process.

    26 disregards the whole concept of democracy. We will make the decisions. You will protest. We will take cognisance of your petition and do nothing?

    27-28 No comment. Here, have a sticky toffee for being a good boy. No, not all of you, just this little lad in the front whose ticket came out first.

    29-34 Come tell our council, who have refused support for Parish Plans, will not look at Market Towns, and shudder at the very idea of public participation.

    35-37 Older folk, in droves, should be encouraged to get involved in local decision making. They have time and wisdom, and tend not to make rash decisions in response to current panics. The elder has always played a significant part in society - until recently.

    38-41 The current fixation with measurability and standards is no more than a simplified method that allows responsibility to be pushed further down the tree. A target is set. Often one that is not achievable. Those set that target then attempt to manipulate the statistics so that it appears they are conforming. Time and energy are wasted - they both mean it costs money. This is an application of Game Theory that should be rejected - it does not work.

    42-47 Oh dear, we don't know the answer so we'll have a review.

    48-51  We have got to the stage in this country where racial divisions should be ignored. We are all people, and with some silly exceptions the English accept newcomers with good grace. We care not about colour, we do care about inclusion. This is our country. Come here, and join in. You are very welcome. Do not impose your will upon us. Bring variety. Offer us more choice, but you also have a responsibility to be a part of our society.

    Unfortunately we have created a belief where many people feel disenfranchised. 'They' can get this and that while we get nothing. That has created a 'them' and 'us' society - which is very unhealthy.

    Participation in government by a wider cross-section sounds great, but young people don't have time to devote to the mundane of politics. They have to be self-centred, to keep the job, pay the mortgage.

    Entitled to request time off work, maybe. In this county, Suffolk, 25% work for local government or public agencies. Of the remainder 90% work for firms with less than four employees. Entitled, but is it reasonable? Money can't compensate for the loss of a key worker.

    52 Not another 'qualification'. More hidebound bureaucracy, more courses run by people who have no idea because they've never done the job themselves.

    54. Great idea. Our PCT closed a convalescent home in Felixstowe. One that was owned by the community before the creation of the NHS. The PCT now wants to sell it to a property developer. The community wants it back. It was ours, and we have a real need for it now. We lent it to the NHS, together with sufficient funds to run the place in perpetuity. The PCT say they have lost the original deeds and the money was absorbed. I think this is criminal and theft. We feel totally powerless. We are powerless. But will this legislation prevent such crimes?

    55. Our council is allowing a local developer to build expensive homes on land owned by the council. Government regulations state this should all be affordable housing. That diktat is ignored by the council. Our protests are ignored.

    57. Social enterprises work, if properly supported. We put together a team to take over control of our local theatre. An extremely experienced and capable team. We were refused the chance to tender because our organisation had no financial history, so the contract was awarded to a London-based company who take our money and run, giving no more than tribute bands two nights a week. Such ridiculous situations happen all the time.

    The intentions behind this White Paper are idealistically sound. In practice many will be unworkable. I'm not sure who advises the Minister but it's unlikely they live in the real world. Most of us are poor and struggling. Many are poorly educated (20% can't read and write to an acceptable standard) and we are all convinced that politicians don't really care about us. They are saving money, reacting to the latest press release, never taking the long term.

    If central government really engaged with the community - and stopped believing that local councils have much to do with the local community - we could create a wonderful country in which to live that we could all enjoy.

    Talk to us - stop imposing your ideas upon us. Give us tools and power and we'll build you a great nation. 

  • 463 in reply to 447
    15/07/2008, 4:47 PM :: Posted by Anne Wilkins (Posts 23)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    Thanks for a great start to the forum. We want to continue to hearing from you in response to these questions, so please let us have your views over the next few weeks.

    If you haven't seen it yet, you might want to take a look at Hazel Blears' blog on the White Paper at this link: http://haveyoursay.communities.gov.uk/blogs/hazelblears-empowerment.

    We look forward to hearing from you!

    Anne (Moderator)

  • 472 in reply to 463
    16/07/2008, 1:24 PM :: Posted by Rob Jackson (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    I think it is good that they recognise 'communities of interest', because it acknowledges that people can be part of multiple communities across various locations. But at the same time it doesn’t offer a practical definition of communities of interest. I just hope that councils proactively encourage people to use the Sustainable Communities Act and become ‘engaged’.

  • 474 in reply to 410
    16/07/2008, 4:54 PM :: Posted by Philralph (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    Some fine words in the White Paper but little to suggest action will be up to the scale of the challenge. Defensiveness, for example about representative democracy, still seems to be favoured at the expense of more holistic solutions. As Charles Leadbeater puts it, "The challenge for public services is how to enlist users as co-producers and co-designers ...." Design needs to be open as well as detail. I feel we need something like 'Open involvement' as described on the Sustainable Community Action wiki - standards for involvement to rebuild trust amongst citizens and community groups that all contributions will be fairly, adequately, respectfully and transparently valued. Citizens' use of new technology continues to challenge government complacency. Events such as BarcampUKGovweb hint at wider pools of ideas and enthusiasm.
  • 475 in reply to 410
    16/07/2008, 6:22 PM :: Posted by SaveTheWorld (Posts 13)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    What a fantastic range of views and responses - add these to the 51 posts and thousands of words we input on the previous forum pages "Unlocking The Talent" as a run up consultation to this white paper launch and we can be most proud of the extent of public input on the Communities if Control initative.  Of course, what drives us on is our wish to help get this one right and makes me wonder how many white papers that have gone before would have been much improved by public input.  Whatever we individually think about any one comment we accept these are the honest and open voices of the public - willing to volunteer their thoughts to help reach the best solution.

    I note some of the ideas put into the Unlocking the Talent pages are not clearly seen in the white paper, it would be a shame not to ask if these are fully considered at this next part of arriving at the finishing post.  Please do take some time to look at the previous forum and make sure all the good ideas have been mapped into the white paper.

     If what you are asking now is our opinion on the actual production of the Communities in Control and its content then I want to say it is extremely good - verging on greatness - to see a common thread running through those at high level that are the ones taking our voices and choices forward.  We remain the general public and can be little wonder when we hold our breath and doubt the outcome until it arrives.

    We trust in this white paper going forward - hope the actions are visionary - plead for grass roots involvement and say thank you for taking this forward.

  • 478 in reply to 463
    17/07/2008, 5:12 PM :: Posted by croydonboy (Posts 4)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    As usual the rhetoric doesn't match the action and as a result any trust the public has is eroded. If the Government is seriously about engaging communities then making a mess of consultations on big issues like nuclear power and Heathrow airport really doesn't help.

    It also is unhelpful that so many powers have been taken away from local government that there is little to motivate the public to get involved. Academies are removing education from democratic control, council housing rent levels are now set nationally and major planning applications have been virtually nationalised.

    Giving some democratic control over the police is a good idea but of course this is being misused to encourage directly elected mayors. Judging by the actions of the Mayor of Doncaster the police may well end up investigating their boss quite regularly. Why not give the power to local councils regardless of how the executive is formed?   If directly elected officials are such a good idea then why not have a directly elected Prime Minister? It would stop anyone becoming PM without a mandate from the electorate.

     

  • 486 in reply to 462
    20/07/2008, 5:34 PM :: Posted by SIRJOHN (Posts 1)

    Re: Communities in control: real people, real power

    Lockwood,

    perhaps - in a nutshell - listening, but not hearing would be more appropriate.

    Your final two paragraphs sum up 'frustrations' precisely.

    Public servants are accountable - to whom? (Don't answer that!)

    Councillor power is in votes - vote them in/vote them out.

    Petitions are effective when combined with publicity.

    The tide is turning, never give up.

    There is a growing culture change - not yet fully effective - which enables us, the former, poor, uneducated second class citizens, to exercise our democratic rights by being polite when asking and then demanding by telling public officials what to do.

    The 60 plusses will be listened to, and heard, and are a force not to be ignored. Because we don't take no for an answer!

    So much for bureaucracy.

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